Hey Ladies!
I want to hear some feed back from you on these quotes from Leslie Ludy's new book "Set-Apart Femininity." I have all these conversations swirling around in my head and would love for others to join in the conversation. Here's the quotes.....tell me what you think, please!
To give some back ground, Leslie is talking about how before Christ the Jewish temple was where God dwelt and how the temple was to be kept consecrated and beautiful for the serious task of once a year the priest going in to the Holy of Holies. She continues on with the parallel of how our bodies are now the dwelling place of God's Holy Spirit and quotes 2 Corinth. 6:16-47 about how we are to come out from them and be separate.
She follows with a quote from Amy Carmichael about being 'completely separate in spirit from the world and wholly devoted to Christ.'
Now comes the quote I wish to discuss. We justify our spiritual adultery with clever-sounding arguments about needing to be 'in touch with the culture' so that we an win others to Christ. p.86
Just this week, an influential Christian woman told us, "Your message is way too extreme. Jesus fits into the world. He was attractive to the world so that people could identify with Him. We as Christians need to be attractive to the world and even look like the world at times. After all, God isn't calling us to be Quakers!"
How I wish you were all here around my kitchen table so we could chat this out!!! I have a million thoughts spinning around in my head about this. Isnt' this one of the BIG struggles/arguments that the Christian culture has? Do we hang out with our non-Christian friends to be 'the little light' they might see that week. Even if we never once mention Christ? Do we pull-out from 'pop culture', or what about even 'culture/world' at the risk of being 'weird?" Is weird effective? What about the risky label of a 'legalist'' or 'prideful?'
Practical areas here would be what we use the internet for and why, what books we read, language we use (especially around non-Christians), clothing we wear or don't wear, and our frienships.
Philippians 4:8-9 (King James Version)
8Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.
9Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you.
p. 87 But the 'fear of legalism' is often just an excuse to keep living self-ruled, pleasure-seeking, sin-loving lives. Legalism is merely the futile attempt to do in our own strength what the Spirit of God means to accomplish on our behalf.
Oswald Chambers- "We are to be perfect as He is perfect. Not by striving and effort, but by the impartation of that which is Holy.'
The reason that dour-faced, super-stiff Christians are so miserable and so bound to countless rules is that they are striving in their own might to live righteously before God. They have never yielded to the supernaturally enabling power of God to wok in and through them to live a truly miraculous set-apart life that is not propped up by human effort. Their Christianity is dead.
But so is ours. We have retaliated against legalistic Christianity by swinging the opposite direction, mocking the idea of holiness and trying to be as much like the world as possible in order to prove that our Christianity isn't just for stuffy librarians and backwoods country schoolmarms. p.87 (From Misti: Hey, who are you calling a backwoods country schoolmarm! LOL!)
I'm wondering how much our 'women's insecurities' play in here. Remember, I recently attended Beth Moore's "So Long Insecurity" seminar and can't shake the thought that we women have such insecurities when it comes to wanting to be liked by others. Do we compromise or convince ourselves that some things are 'okay' to keep ourselves liked and thought well of?
Or is there something more that we aren't grasping? I often try to seek out women who have made a real difference for Christ in their lives. I want to emulate their wisdom for God's glory. Seems these types of women are in the world but not of it. Yet people mostly remember them for the wonderful way that God used them. Doesn't mean they were 'liked' by many but yet their was no denying who these women served and where their hearts were turned. Many were never even 'recognized' until after their death.
I'm going to stop there for now. I might post some more from this chapter later. I want to hear from you. What do you think??? What is the balance? What is our motives?
wow, lots to think of. lots to talk about but....I am not so great at putting my thoughts to "paper". Where is the kitchen table???
ReplyDeleteI am not so sure that we are to be "liked" by the world because we are "cool" but yet we are not to be so withdrawn, rude and obnoxious that they hate us. Which means they should be attracted to us because of the peace we radiate and the love we show to others through the grace that Christ has given us. It all goes back to our hearts. If our hearts are intune with the Lord we will want to please Him and not the world. Ultimately the world comes and goes with what impresses them. The Lord wants our honor and praise and our submission. He wants me to have His heart. .......
Another words we need to be in touch with the Lord and He will lead us to "touch the lives" of those in the world. I think there is a difference in being "in touch" with the world, and "touching" the world
ReplyDeleteI don't know. But I want to read the book!
ReplyDeleteAmanda-You should have asked for it for your birthday. Giggle giggle
ReplyDeleteYvonne-I like the thoughts on touching the world with out touching the world! Hmmmmm.......
ReplyDeleteToo much here for comments, my friend. And I am so far from having it figured out!!
ReplyDeleteInitial thoughts: 1) obviously, God is the one working through us--we cannot attain a state of righteousness on our own or through some list of rules--He alone clothes us with righteousness.
2) hanging out with non-christians and never mentioning Christ would obviously not be letting our lights shine. I am reminded of the Jews during the time of Esther here--we aren't to lose our distinctiveness, we aren't to be assimilated. . .to quote Beth, we need to "recapture both our identity and identification as His children--not so we can be obnoxious but so we can be influential" (44).
3) if we just spend time with other Christians, our light is being wasted. We are to be the salt and the light. It is in DARKNESS that light shines. Kiana was frustrated yesterday as she was playing with a flashlight and she was convinced I hadn't turned it on b/c she couldn't see it. It might be more comfortable to retreat and only be around other 'lights' but our light can't be used in the daylight--it is made FOR the darkness.
continuing my chat around the table. . .
ReplyDelete4) Jesus spent time with the prostitutes and the publicans. They *were* drawn to Him. Because He was OF the world? Oh no, of course not. But He was IN the world. He was 'out there' where His light was shining, (I agree with Yvonne) because He radiated peace and love. He also offered hope, and we have that same offer through Him. He also, we of course must remember, called people to repentance. (Go and sin no more)
It was the Pharisees who were the recipients of His greatest rebukes--whitewashed sepulchres. They held themselves above the rest as holy and righteous and wouldn't think of being contaminated by the world. Hmmmm. . .this really makes me think.
I liked Yvonne's comment about the world not liking us b/c we're "cool", nor hating us b/c we are withdrawn, rude, or obnoxious. Our goal is not to be liked or to be popular. But neither is our goal to be DISLIKED. Weirdness for the sake of weirdness--NO!
ReplyDeleteRomans 12:18 "If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men."
Proverbs 16:7 "When a man's ways please the Lord, he maketh even his enemies to be at peace with him."
We can't compromise God's truth in order to be friends with people. But we CAN BE FRIENDS WITH PEOPLE. People can like us because we are kind, because we are encouraging, because we are helpful, because we have joy, because we love others. . .
Oh, and Von, I like your thoughts on being 'liked.' Not a 'you are cool' kind of like but 'likeable because of the fruits of the spirit that radiate from you.'
ReplyDeleteOooooohhhhh! I LOVE our virtual table.
ReplyDeleteShonya, never weird for the sake of being weird. Well, that's just "weird!"
Love the Beth quote applied here to this topic. Also, point #3 about Light shining in the darkness. Yes!
On the other hand, all who live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution (II Timothy 2:12) and marvel not if the world hate you (I John 3:13) because God's righteousness convicts people of their sin--His light reveals their darkness.
ReplyDeleteNow lets turn it a bit. What about.....Shonya, you stinker! You just brought out the next bone I was going to toss about about being hated by the world through persecution.
ReplyDeleteIf we really were around the table I wonder if we would have interrupted each other!
The Challenge:
ReplyDeleteIn what ways have we let the world into our lives because we've justified it, enjoy it, or are insecure in removing it because we might look different.
You needn't post but definitely think on this! I want these areas pruned from my life (even if they pain me.)
Help hold me accountable in love, please!
tee, hee, yes, probably WOULD have interrupted one another!
ReplyDelete14I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
ReplyDelete15I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
16They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
From this I take it that we aren't to be OF the world (i.e., not trying to be 'cool' to fit in, not obsessed with the things of the world, not idolizing the culture of the world), but neither are we to be OUT of the world (YET!)--but we are sent into the world, sanctified by the Truth, that we might share that word.
I thought there was a scripture that said we are to be 'in the world not of the world', but I'm not finding it. . .????
1 John 2:15-16
ReplyDelete15Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16For everything in the world—the cravings of sinful man, the lust of his eyes and the boasting of what he has and does—comes not from the Father but from the world.
1 John 2:15-16 is where I was coming from with my challenge. I don't want to 'love' anything of the world and not only think it is okay, but not have another Christian brother or sister point it out if I am oblivious to it.
ReplyDeleteBut yet I wonder if there is still more of the 'love of the world' in me than I even yet realize. Make sense?
James 4:4
ReplyDelete4 Adulterers and[a] adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.
Just dropping some scripture here so I have it in one place to meditate on. Bare with me.
ReplyDelete2 Corinthians 6:14-15
14 Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? 15 And what accord has Christ with Belial? Or what part has a believer with an unbeliever?
From page 90 In fact, if we are applauded and approved by secular society, in all likelihood we are not truly allowing the Spirit of God to fully own and operate us. (followed up by John 15:18-19)
ReplyDeletep. 90 And it makes me sad to say this, but he scorn we receive might not only come from unbelievers. If we embrace the sacred decorum of set-apart femininity, it is probable that many of our fellow Christians will look at us with a sketchy eye. That's because modern Christianity, by and by is far more concerned about impressing the world than being consumed with Christ along. the popularity of seeker-sensitive mega churches--where Bibles are left at home in exchange for fancy Starbucks drinks and kinds playing XBox games during Sunday School--is just one example of how the modern church has watered down the Christ-life to nothing more than joining a social club.
ReplyDeleteAnd when we choose a different path, it makes them uncomfortable.
Did you know that Amy Carmichael was so disliked by her fellow Christian missionaries that they made a concerted effort to run her out of India?
ReplyDeleteAnybody know 'why?'
A spirit of service and a love for those who others considered "unlovable" always dominated Amy's ministry even in Europe before she begin ministry cross-culturally. In her early twenties, she worked with a group of young ladies called "shawlies" because of the shawls they wore on their heads. The proper members of Amy's church were shocked that someone would reduce them self to teaching the Bible to these low members of society.
ReplyDeleteAgain in India much of the missionary community shunned Amy's ministry to orphans. Some believed the temple children did not exist while others looked down on the acts of service and emphasis at Dohnavur to the education, physical care and character building of each child. On one occasion Amy asked a visiting missionary to help her carry a bucket, the missionary replied he would rather "carry his Bible." Amy felt that service was an essential part of missionary work, although she did not always readily embrace the sacrifices it took to have this spirit of service.
Once back in Ireland, as Amy and her family were returning from church they chanced upon an old woman carrying a heavy bundle of rags. Amy and her brothers took the bundle and helped the old woman to her destination. To Amy, this act of sacrifice and kindness was "hated." As they turned and walked along, they passed by the other Churchgoers and worried what these "respectable people" would think. Before bringing the woman to her destination Amy and her brothers passed by an elaborate Victorian fountain.
A voice impressed upon Amy's heart the words from 1 Corinthians 3:12-14. "Gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble. If any man's work abide." That afternoon Amy sought God privately in her room anguishing over the idea of what would last in eternity from her own life. The lessons of obedience and sacrifice from that day would echo through the rest of her life.
Sources: Elliot, Elisabeth. A Chance to Die: The Life and Legacy of Amy Carmichael
This is closer to what I am thinking about being out in the world......loving the unlovable, tending to orphans and widows. This is the kind of 'being in the world' work that God commands us to do.
What I wonder about is the balance of being set apart for Him for example: when we're at a family get together and the talk is yucky, and everyone is playing cards and expects you to play but the ridiculous (and sinful) conversation is just about over the top for your limits. If you sit and play you feel so uncomfortable, if you politely decline and (do what?) they give you this look with a comment on your goody two shoedness. It's like they just poke and prod to see what you'll do. Oh and by the way, this group of people go to church semi-regularly and call themselves Christians.
We actually had a big discussion on this broad idea at church during Sunday School last week, spurred from 1 Corinthians 8. Part of the conclusion seemed to be that part of whether something should be done or not by a particular individual depends on the heart behind the action. If we are justifiying the right to do something because we really don't want to give it up, then it has a hold on us and that is probably an area where we really should separate ourselves (for our own growth). If it's an area where we're not trying to prove our right to do it, it may have become a non-issue spiritually for us and then falls into the doesn't harm category unless it is being a stumbling block to someone else.
ReplyDeleteIt is a tough balance sometimes . . . . how do we love (the family, in your example), without condoning the behavior?
A 16 yog told Briana last night that "she got pregnant once and her boyfriend took her to the doctor so he could take it out."
ReplyDeleteyeah. Breaks my heart. Would I rather Briana not hear this? Ohhhhhhh, honey you KNOW it!!! But Briana ministered to this girl. She told her God loves her and He forgives and He will help her be pure if she will ask Him. Briana told her she prays for her.
Jesus sent us into the world to love--to build relationships--to share the hope He has given us.
That was the first baseball practice.
What is God doing? I don't know, but I have been convicted that I've been hiding out, doing what is easy, digging a hole to bury my one talent instead of investing (Matthew 25:14-30).
Thanks Lorri. You've joined the table!
ReplyDeleteWhat about this thought. As a Christian friend I tell you about the latest book I am reading or movie I just watched. They are secular and wouldn't hold up to the Philippians 4:8 standard by a long shot. I tell you they are really good and I just wanted to see what they were about. You know, what everyone was saying about them, for myself.
I could tell you that they don't have a hold on me. Maybe you might have a problem with them but I don't.
In this case I don't think our movie goer has a non-issue spiritually other than they are not obeying this scripture. If they disagreed with me on that then we've got a double standard happening. There would be a right for me but not right for you. A wrong for me but not wrong for you. Did we just lose absolute truth along the way? (I am so thinking out loud.)Thoughts??
Philippians 4:8
8Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things.
Shonya!!
ReplyDeleteAmazing! I know that you'd felt like God wanted you to play baseball this year. Okay, so not you, giggle, but your son anyway. You are exactly where God needed you so that Briana could minister.
Your testimony fits exactly what I posted about Amy Carmichael. Getting out there 'in the world' to minister to the sick, the abandoned, the lest of these, the hurting.
In your case playing baseball isn't contradicting any Scripture. It was good for Briana to hear the other girls hurt and be able to show love. This is RIGHT. WRONG would be chasing the world.
And for your family, it is obvious that baseball has no hold over you!
I'm glad you listened to God on this one and are viewing the world with eyes of 'I am open to minister and be used in whatever way you put before me, LORD."
Shonya,
ReplyDeleteFinal thought for the day from me. I think where we are at one this is that there is a major difference between Briana hearing something not pretty and sinful at a baseball game and ministers in love in response versus Briana going to the latest "Twilight" movie with her Christian girl friends from church cause they've all read the books and they are 'really good."
Father God,
ReplyDeleteHelp us to be in this world but not of it. Help us to cleanse out all the ways that the world might be keeping us from living a victorious life to your glory. Keep our hearts pure in motive.
In your Sons Precious Name,
Amen